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Drivin' Maniac
2002 Grand Caravan ES 3.8L
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Too bad one couldn't bond the bushing to the bar in a neutral position.
That is what I did, on the second replacement.

With vice Grips, we put some nice knurling onto the surface of the bar, which was worn as smooth as silk...then a bit of contact adhesive (and, IIRC, a layer of inner tube to tighten things up even more).

Three years, no issues...
 
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Discussion Starter #43
Jeep man, I’ve seen you say bonded several times in this thread. Are you just simply referring to the greater compression of new
Bushings compressed on a new bar or does an OEM brand new Mopar swaybar come with bushings actually glued on in position?
 

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Discussion Starter #44
The current creaking noise even quiets down after driving through a downpour as long as the bushings are still wet with water there're quieter.

So this would make for a quieter submarine versus a land vehicle.

Even the last fall when the bushings were loose I didn’t notice any performance change around corners, It’s still a corner like a school bus and everyone behind me wanted to speed up just to pass me , that’s life in a minivan.

And the dudes in their big lifted diesel trucks yes the rolling smoke kind of guys really have a deep anger for minivans....ha ha...

Of course once very loose there is the possibility of damaging something the bar or the attachment points, So there comes a point where you have to replace it.

My brother has a 2013 model and doesn’t know much about cars I’ve asked him about creaking noise in the front at 100,000 miles and it still doesn’t make any noise.
 

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The bushing themselves limit fore/aft and up/down motion of the bar. As the bar twists from say the left wheel moving up, the 'up' twist is transferred to the right wheel. Note, there is actual twisting of the bar, and is why it is almost impossible to trap a round bar in a round bushing.

Also, and as I've tried to impress on Jeepman (and all Canadians!), the torsional stiffness of the bar is orders of magnitude greater than the torsional stiffness of the bushing. Now it the bushing were made from Ebonite, it would be a different story.

Finally, the nylon sleeved bushing was made to allow twisting without sticking (noise), as nylon is a very slippery material.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
That’s the funny thing I have the updated moog version with the nylon insert which copies the latest Mopar version for 05 I think ,....and it still creeks . probably only works better, Quieter, if you have an actual brand new bar to put it on.
 

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That is what I did, on the second replacement.

With vice Grips, we put some nice knurling onto the surface of the bar, which was worn as smooth as silk...then a bit of contact adhesive (and, IIRC, a layer of inner tube to tighten things up even more).

Three years, no issues...
An you have been keeping this a secret all this time. :mad:
 

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Jeep man, I’ve seen you say bonded several times in this thread. Are you just simply referring to the greater compression of new
Bushings compressed on a new bar or does an OEM brand new Mopar swaybar come with bushings actually glued on in position?
These are suppose to be compression bonded bushings and, by design, are not supposed to slip. Chemically bonded bushings are a different animal, which Carbuff2 seems to have tamed. :)

My Jeep has the same design for the front sway bar but the bar is bigger, bushing is bigger, and it's a proper 2 bolt bracket, not one with a tab. I forgot to mention that the brackets themselves are likely prone to replacement on the Vans. The 5th Generation Vans have a two bolt system.. The Jeep's suspension has a lot of travel and the sway bar bushings are original and quiet to this day, some 18 years later. The links have been replaced a few times though and clunk like the dickens when worn.

Here's some information on the various types of sway bar system designs, which I find quite interesting.:
Now if I could only get Marvinsrockman to put on his reading glasses and read that information, so that he would realize that a bushing that is designed to slip, is also one that is designed to be lubricated routinely via zerks.

The bushing for the Vans is likely too thin and the tabbed bracket too weak, with no safety factor, to take the forces. Suspension travel with wear, the cornering motion that moves the sway bar, via the struts/links, likely contribute to the problem.

Mopar, and others, tried to fix the "WELL KNOWN" problem over the years:
  • bushings that had a fabric like abrasive surface incorporated in the rubber, where it contacts the bar
  • hard bushings, requiring lubrication (polyurethane like)
  • MOOG Blue thermoplastic? bushings
  • Mopar insert bushing
  • Mopar insert bushing with a paste (lubricant?) between the rubber and the insert
  • Mopar insert bushing, back to precious
  • MOOG insert bushing, beefier than Mopar

Guess what? The problem "isn't solved" and nobody is writing a technical paper as to why and what to do. This may go down in history as "the problem that even duct tape couldn't fix" . :)

61850


 

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Discussion Starter #50
This generation ended in, what 2007? These are all ancient vehicles worthy of the scrap yard as far as the automotive industry is concerned . Probably no one will come up with a fix.

The people in this post who have had good luck either ruffed up the bushing area, Used new clamps, or don’t have a super smooth worn sway bar.

I’m guessing in winter salt country there is a cycle of the bushing area on this bar corroding and then having it ware away Giving the bar a smaller diameter at the bushing area much sooner than these vans in non-snow non-salt warmer areas.
 

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It would be interesting to know what the long term experience has been with the poly bushings.
 

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2002 Grand Caravan ES 3.8L
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It would be interesting to know what the long term experience has been with the poly bushings.
Well, there are poly bushings...and poly bushings. :whistle:

By that, I'm pointing out that durometer (hardness...pliability, if that is a word) varies among manufacturers or applications. Some polyurethane is 'hard', some is 'soft'. (Rubber, too.)
poly is great. In others, they squeak and make (a different type of) noise. In still others, they can melt if too close to a hot exhaust (more so than rubber).
 
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Discussion Starter #53
About poly or rubber hardness and “friction factor” —

I really started to notice this increased creeking on the two part moog bushings as the weather was warming up 50-70F, now cooler 22F again and the creaking is certainly less. Weird. Maybe they shrink so far in the cold that there is NO grip, thus no noise, but not worn enough for space/gap clunking.

Still very dry out - no water splashing “lubing” the bushings.

The auto zone cheep brand prior to these got Louder as it got cooler outside, as I would suspect. They were super worn though, like a hammer banging under my feet.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Update: Was 75f then 80f ,(early for that) last Easter weekend , 60 today and the bushings have Been SILENT.

The silicone spray only lasts two days and that was a few weeks ago. I never sprayed anything else on it yet.

So the white/clear internal Moog nylon insert is very temperature sensitive.

Plus no rain for weeks so the clamp area is also rust and moisture free right now.
 

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I have replaced the sway bar bushings several times (maybe 3?) on my 2005 Town and Country. The last set I put on were Moog K7406 and are still ok after 70k miles. I did put silicone brake grease on them. The previous set (not Moog) only lasted 45k miles before wearing out.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Wow. That’s odd good luck (!) considering the moog blue k7406 are the old stock obsolete design (I called moog). My moog blues only lasted 15k.

Per moog and crysler these are a no Grease zone. Obviously a dry rubber bushing will grab and prob deteriorate from that grabbing. A lubed bushing won’t ware as much but also technically won’t work correct. F that the therory. I’m thinking a lubed bushing is best. The bar will still transfer twist torque to the opposite A arm grease or not.

I’m guessing your sway bar is also not worn at the bushings area and don’t drive in extreme environment ranges? (Salt, Snow, -35f to 100f)
 

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My van also stopped the creaking since the temperature has gone up.

I also think that the bar is supposed to twist in the bushing some.

Some aftermarket urethane performance sway bar bushings and brackets actually come with grease fittings in them. None for our vans that I know of, though. If you can get urethane bushings, you could drill them and tap the bracket for grease fittings.

I don't put enough miles or really care enough to try to improve the factory setup. The bushings really aren't that hard to change when they go bad, either.
 

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I'm on my third set of sway bar bushings now, 2 napa blue(lasted less than a year) and now I'm on a mopar set that have been good for 1.5 years now. I did put silicone brake lube on them during install and they haven't made any noise yet. In my opinion the bushings simply hold the bar in place and prevent body roll. Control arm bushings do assist with suspension dampening but I doubt seay bushings do. I could be wrong though.
 

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I'm on my third set of sway bar bushings now, 2 napa blue(lasted less than a year) and now I'm on a mopar set that have been good for 1.5 years now. I did put silicone brake lube on them during install and they haven't made any noise yet. In my opinion the bushings simply hold the bar in place and prevent body roll. Control arm bushings do assist with suspension dampening but I doubt seay bushings do. I could be wrong though.
The bushings are suppose to grip or "compression bond" to the bar as do all bushings that don't have a grease fitting or call for lubrication of some kind. Neither MOOG nor Mopar bushings call for, or have a lubricant specified for, the installation.

More on sway bar types and performance:
1. STABILIZER BAR WITH CONVENTIONAL BUSHING Note: Bar is loose within the bushing, decreasing the effectiveness of the bar.
2. STABILIZER BAR WITH GRIPPY FLAT BUSHING Note: Flat surfaces on bar and bushing to create grip. Causes stress concentrations.
3. STABILIZER BAR WITH UPSET RING
4. STABILIZER BAR WITH CHEMICALLY BONDED BUSHING
5. STABILIZER BAR WITH COMPRESSIVELY BONDED BUSHING Note: That appears to be what we have.
.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
One can explain therory all day long. In the case with these bushings theory and real life are not the same. In this case theory was wishful thinking because the design of these is a flat out engineering failure. Typical Mopar crap.

These bushings need to grip or slip none of this in between BS which is what they seem to be doing the most of.

Want to bar to grab something ? then give it a flat surface not round. And certainly not just one bolt.

The bar will still control roll of the vehicle even if the bushings are lubed just due to the fact that it’s attached to two different arms with opposite forces, opposites equalize.
 
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